this just in: torture doesnt work

NYT: Experts in our intelligence agencies think torture is "outmoded, amateurish and unreliable". (story with the oh-so-weak headline: "Interrogation methods criticized")

Hat tip Obsidian Wings, where hilzoy has a good statement:

If it [torture] is not the most effective way of getting information, then debating whether or not we should use it is just stupid: of course we shouldn't engage in torture if some other technique is just as good, or better. Arguing about torture without asking this question is like arguing about whether you must, absolutely must, eat your children to keep yourself from starving to death without first checking to see whether you have any other food available.

Ha. Or at least, ha if it weren't so sick and sad. He has another few paragraphs equally good - about the 'seriousness debate' in which people who don't support torture are not serious about defending us against terrorists. Actually of course it's the other way around - the pro-torture side does not advocate it because it's actually effective, but because "they're in love with a fantasy of themselves as the person who is tough enough to do all those dirty things that have to be done while other people just wring their hands and whimper." (my itals)